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It's a movie made by Geert Wilders, an anti-quran movie.

Opinions...



PS: this is not a a debate about religions.

Please only comment if you actually watched the movie because this is a debate about the movie.

I think the film was rushed and really really low quality, its less than half an hour and it contains old video's of attacks by muslims, and extreme quotes from koran.

The whole point of the vid is just to show muslims are bad, but he didn't actually gave any good arguments exept for things done by extremists already.

Geert Wilders Wiki
Fitna Wiki
Here's some info for the people that have no clue who he is or what the movie is.

Reopened - Video added from youtube.

It can be used to viscerally shock and to ideologically shock. If one doesn't apply to you, it is likely the other would.
A shocking film usually has consequences of publicity, (Take a look at Hounddog, The Wild One and Bambi wikis for examples), which I think is what Wilders was aiming for with this film (publicity).
Also, due to the subject of his film, he was able to manipulate extremist groups to put a price on his head to help his argument. Ie, he knew they would do it if he released the film regardless that they are providing examples against Islam.

I didn't really come down on a side, but oh well.

Allow me to clear things up...

Straight after it shows the Twin Towers...

No, they aren't the enemy. If he had the brain to look up what Surah 8 is all about he would find it translates into 'Spoils of War,' and therefore the 'enemy' are those who you are fighting against, not those working in a building.

Correction: Allah is happy when muslims FOLLOW his guidance and Muhammad's teachings. None of which, by the way, encourage suicide bombing to kill INNOCENT people. Same goes for the second one straight after it.

What's this got to do with 'terrorism'? if you don't believe, you will suffer the consequences, simple.

By the sounds of things, he is very much angered by what is going on in Palestine/Israel so he will say these sorts of things.

Jihad does NOT include killing innocent people, but it is rather referring to submitting yourself to Allah, i.e. in a war/battle. I would love to see where the girl got her quote from, only then will I be able to comment on it. her parents probably have a lot of hatred towards what the Jews have done, so they will say these things.

The prophet himself made treaties with the Jews in Medina, which included helping eachother at the time of need. The Jews accepted these conditions happily, no swords were used, and guess who was the first to go against the pact. No, not the Muslims, it was the Jews. Even then the prophet tried to refrain from having to use violence against them.

The banners aren't quotes from the Qur'an, so I have no idea why he put them in. They are used to express, again, anger, not religion.

Referring to war, not civilians.

Theo Van Gogh shoudl have known the consequences for making the film he did, and he wasn't innocent in anyway. Btw, whose the man in orange?

According to the official translation, the killing bit refers to 'renegades' (i.e. a rebel/deserter)

Islam does not remove freedom from people, it has guidelines that make more sense than what are used by countried now-a-days. No, it does not involve oppression.

All the Quranic quotes shown are there because of false interpretation.

Most of what you said is your own oppinion bling..
And I don't know where your getting the terrorism from, but this isn't only about war, its about the islam in general

btw - the translation is pretty poor in some places.

The video is not longer available (seems to happen alot with this video), close this topic untill there is found a replacement, please.

Fixed



Btw, these kind of quotes could probably be retrieved in the bible too, but you can't just rip things out of context.
And they often mean something else than they say.

Frankly, I agree with him. The islam people, whatever you want to call them, are causing trouble in Holland, and because of the way they act they are hated by most. They do not adapt at all, they just wish to profit from the good sides of our culture, the sides they can make money of, and for the rest, they just stay the way they are. They mainly don't speak dutch well (if at all), and are arrogant and in some cases even dangerous. Some would even attack you for looking at them.

All this was probably a good reason for Wilders to make the film, and I wont prove him wrong because he has a point. They are stubborn, but hopefully they will learn from this, and see that they will have to adapt to the new world. They can't just "eliminate" their enemies when they want to. The response to the movie was very good, so hopefully there will be more stuff like this, and maybe one day there will be peace between all of the different cultures.

It is because of extremists shown in that video, that I tollerate the Christian extremists in America and other countries.

TBH, I would rather see a Crusader flag flying in England than see a crecent moon and have to subject myself to - what I view as - archaic and bloody stupid religious and sharia laws. I will not have my freedom taken away by aggressive fools who use this religion as a tool.

It's not the Quran I have a problem with. Its the idiots who abuse it

To quote Thomas Jefferson:

I just wish people in government would actually pay attention to whats going on in their own countries and take action - refreshing the ''tree of Liberty'' so to speak

Infact... Ill quote Robert A. Heinlein


Think that sums up my view. Better to bloody your sword fighting for your freedom than to roll over and give in to the aggressors.

lol no, no religion debate here, just a movie putting down a religion. carry on

I totally agree with this statement. This can be applied to all religions, imo.

This is more a discussion about freedom of speech rather than one about religions.

I agree with maarten on this one, the problem is that like many other extreme beliefs from the worlds history, there is a fairly large and active Islamic cell that does not accept anything except for the Islam. Sure there are similar cases in most religions, but the the Islamic belief is so aggressive and violent that its more noticeable and harmful.
Living in Israel does mean i have a different point of view from most other people, but I don't think the wester world should try to 'put down' Islam. Just make sure that any acts against Freedom and Democracy are dealt with accordingly. It's not a matter of putting up with it, we have to defend our beliefs to the extent that the Democracy allows us. most importantly, we shouldn't become as vulgar as they are against their so called 'infidels'

When the word Jew is stated here, it is only talking about the Israeli troops that attack Palestine, think about it...The word Muslim is used by people to describe the Muslims who attack Israel. Does that mean every Muslim hates every Jew? Absolutely not. and Does it mean every Jew Hates every Muslim? Absolutely not

I don't know if anyone here knows this, but I'm Muslim, and I can't stand this stereotypical -------- anymore. I have nothing against Jews, one of my best friends is a Jew.
I know more about the Quraan than any of you here. Not a page in it says anything about killing every non Muslim. It says that Muslims should respect people around them and if they want them to join Islam they should try to convert them peacefully, teach them about it, talk to them about it, but not with violence.

The word Kafur is used to describe the people who mindlessly attacked Muslims when the religion first began, the Kafur people worshiped stone statues, they were not Jews or Christians. They were the ones who hurt and tortured Muslim people for not accepting their religion. The Muslims first tried a non violent protest against the Kafur people, But then the Kafur people declared war on the Muslims.

So I want it to be clear that Muslim don't want to kill everyone who is non Muslim.

Wars happen, but this one got way too tangled up with religion that lies are being told about both religions.

People in Palestine are having to live terrorized with bombings every day by Israeli troops, and yet most of the put downs are on Muslims hate crimes committed on them everyday and not to mention having to deal with all the stereotypical fags in school calling you a terrorist, have any of you ever tried to deal with that? Now you hear the story from the other side, don't be an ignorant and keep stereotyping Muslims, Its just not fair, for both countries, and both religions.

Think about it...Millions of Muslims suffer against hate crimes because people are too ignorant to get the whole clear story.

And now I want to talk about 9/11
Osama bin laden is one guilty person, not millions of innocent people. No Muslims support him, in fact we hate him for ruining our image, I remember that day, My dad was listening to his car radio driving me home from school. I remember him telling me "A bad man has committed a big crime in New York" Does that sound supportive of Osama? And yes My dad is Muslim too.

Joining this debate I would also to like to add that I agree with some that says there are extremists in Islam, and I agree as there are extremists in other religions as well.

However bling masta cleared up all the incorrect misinterpretions by the people.

I would like to bring up a point about the media. If you see whenever something happens now with Muslims or Islam involved in it there is a big show.

Just think of the time when the Archbishop of Canterbury called for implementation of Parts of the Shariah Law. It caused a huge uproar by everyone, including people who do not a single thing in the Shariah Law but just because it is related to Islam and the media portrays it as this terrorist act they condemn it. Like Osama people are using Shariah as a way to commit attrocities.
Would not this be suitable to be implemented in any nation

All this talk on freedom of speech.


Source : Wikipedia

All that Geert Wilders shows are quotations and misinterpreting them in the light of the recent activities. Although not wanting to start a war on religions if you take the Bible they have a huge share of contradictions which if wanted I can post here but will not since it will just start a war on religions.
Ill quote Sir Fisher here

People are using the Quraan as a coverup for their unholy acts and throwing the dirt on Muslims. But now the whole world views the Muslims in a strange light, as if they are something to be afraid of worldwide.


Here is a well written article in response to this question
Does the Qur'an teach violence by saying I hope you scholars will help me get rid of these confusions I have been having since the Sept 11 incident, especially as regards some Qur’anic verses. These verses totally contradict what Muslims say that their religion calls for peace and denounces violence. Mind you, though not a Muslim, but I don’t hate Muslims. I just need shedding light on some issues. How would you interpret a verse like this (And slay them wherever ye catch them…)? (Al-Baqarah 2: 191) and (…But if they turn away, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks) (An-Nisaa' 4: 89)


And here is the response


Also Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, said: "Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them in more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment."

There in fact the Prophet himself said that no one can harm the non-Muslims. However do everyone listen to rules, therefore you cant judge a whole religion by what some people do.

If people actually learnt something about Islam they wouldnt talk like this. The whole point is that everyone is ignorant about Islam and they have a peversion to it.

Also read these quotes before starting on talking about violence in Quraan

*{Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah does not love transgressors.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:190)

*{To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to defend themselves], because they are wronged; and verily, Allah is Most Powerful to give them victory — [they are] those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right — [for no cause] except that they say, "Our Lord is Allah" ….}*(Al-Hajj 22:39–40)

While Muslims were allowed to fight, they were not permitted to be the aggressors. Also, clear orders were given to them to stop fighting the moment the enemies stop hostilities and wish for peace.

*{And fight them on until there is no more persecution or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. But if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:193)

*{If two parties among the believers fall into a quarrel, make peace between them. But if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight you (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah. But if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair, for Allah loves those who are fair (and just). The believers are but a single brotherhood. So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers, and fear Allah, that you may receive mercy.}* (Al-Hujurat 49: 9–10)

*{Fulfill the covenant of Allah when ye have covenanted, and break not your oaths after the asseveration of them, and after ye have made Allah surety over you. Lo! Allah knoweth what ye do.}* (An-Nahl 16:91)

Thanks for reading that long post.

How do you know they haven't?


Anyway I completely agree with Sonic etc, I know many muslims, none are like that. ALL live in our society exactly the same as you or I would, and to be honest I think Geert Wilders is an ignorant bigot that needs to understand that having racist nationalist ideas isn't the best way to make yourself look better than what you are against.

Thanks Henry, glad to see someone is smart enough to understand

I agree 100% with maarten

What kind of attitude is that, watch the movie, I have already and if you do not want to contribute to the debate just don't post please.




Another guy with a rational head.



I dont agree with Maarten on 2 points although he does raise a good point about Muslims not adapting. I completely agree here, even as a Muslim and I would say that is a fault in our society. Muslims in foreign countries often try to get their own way but they should not be doing that.

I dont agree when he says they dont adapt at ALL or am I just being picky on the selection of words.
Do you not think that the uproar due to the cartoons was well justfied, it was much similiar to the uproar caused by the Da Vinci Code for Christians. However some stupid idiots in Holland, calling themselves Muslims even if they do not even follow the proper laws tried to use this as an excuse to incite violence.

When I say that they don't adapt, I mean that they refuse to speak or to even learn Dutch, they usually wish to live in their "own" islam neighbourhood, in these neighbourhoods you will only find muslims, and when you go on the streets there you wont hear a word dutch.

In some schools it's bad enough, that when a muslim gets a bad note and the teacher is not a muslim, the muslims would file a complaint against the teacher for being racist.

There are some who will only tell you to ---- off or to shut up, or just not respond at all when you talk to them. I understand why some people don't see the point of the movie, or why they don't understand it. Geert Wilders is a dutch person, and he's describing a lot of the problems you will find in Holland, and I don't know if it's the same anywhere else in the world. Here, some muslims will just tell you that they only live in Holland to profit from the good thing of our culture, well-paid jobs and good working circumstances, which you apperanty don't find much in their own country's. If they don't profit from our well-paid jobs, they profit from the help the government gives if your workless. So the worst thing is, the tax we pay goes to them, how is that for profiting from our culture?

If this is the true situation in Holland im disgraced by their behaviour.

However this trend is being applied to every single muslim living in any country, thats what kinda pisses me off. Like give a dog a bad name and hang it.

True but they stay strong to their religion, and do not commit heinous acts of violence.




Not True, It's Palestine that is continuously bombs and attacks the Israeli border..Read CNN every now and then.




Do Not just automatically assume that you know more about the Quraan then everyone else simply because your are Muslim. I study all Religions world wide and I do know quite a bit about the Islamic faith as it is the worlds largest and is at the seam of every act of terrorism.



Lies, once again it is Palestine and Pakistan that attacks the Israeli border and capital.



Did you ever come to realize that Christians are thrust upon with heinous accusations everyday. So Public schools are allowed to be teaching Islamic faith and views but Christians aren't allowed to put up a poster of the ten commandments in his locker with out being condemned. Also i get teased at school for believing in jesus Christ and God, But I LIVE and move on.




That same day in Oklahoma I wont mention which town a small group of Muslims went marching through town holding up banners and celebrating. I didn't get it because I was in 3rd grade at the time, my mom told me what happened, and I could not see why they were so happy. My mom did not go about all stereotyping them. She simply said they think they did their god a favor.

This is an example of my own. right now I live in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere lol. There is a small grocery shop owned by a family of the Islamic faith. I was nice to them, i always tried to make conversations, I would leave tips during my school lunch and what not. One day though I walk in wearing a cross necklace and shirt that quotes a phrase from the bible. when I went to purchase my lunch he would not take my money. I asked him why not, he replied because your are a jew. Boy did he get it from me. I swore him out telling him i was not and I was a methodist not a Jew, how absurd. He said that he would run over my arm if I ever came back to his shop, and i just lol'ed. I said to him its a fee country pal My grandfather fought for it and I wasn't going to allow some shop keeper to ruin that. half the town never goes back since that incident.

[quote name='maxumus ivo' date='May 22 2008, 10:19 AM' post='558574']
every Muslim? Absolutely not[/quote]
Not True, It's Palestine that is continuously bombs and attacks the Israeli border..Read CNN every now and then.





[quote name='sonic718' post='557459' date='May 11 2008, 10:34 AM'] People in Palestine are having to live terrorized with bombings every day by Israeli troops,[/quote]
Lies, once again it is Palestine and Pakistan that attacks the Israeli border and capital.



[quote name='sonic718' post='557459' date='May 11 2008, 10:34 AM']not to mention having to deal with all the stereotypical fags in school calling you a terrorist, have any of you ever tried to deal with that? Now you hear the story from the other side, don't be an ignorant and keep stereotyping Muslims. [/quote] Did you ever come to realize that Christians are thrust upon with heinous accusations everyday. So Public schools are allowed to be teaching Islamic faith and views but Christians aren't allowed to put up a poster of the ten commandments in his locker with out being condemned. Also i get teased at school for believing in jesus Christ and God, But I LIVE and move on.

[quote name='sonic718' post='557459' date='May 11 2008, 10:34 AM']Think about it...Millions of Muslims suffer against hate crimes because people are too ignorant to get the whole clear story.

And now I want to talk about 9/11
Osama bin laden is one guilty person, not millions of innocent people. No Muslims support him, in fact we hate him for ruining our image, I remember that day, My dad was listening to his car radio driving me home from school. I remember him telling me "A bad man has committed a big crime in New York" Does that sound supportive of Osama? And yes My dad is Muslim too.
[/quote]


That same day in Oklahoma I wont mention which town a small group of Muslims went marching through town holding up banners and celebrating. I didn't get it because I was in 3rd grade at the time, my mom told me what happened, and I could not see why they were so happy. My mom did not go about all stereotyping them. She simply said they think they did their god a favor.

This is an example of my own. right now I live in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere lol. There is a small grocery shop owned by a family of the Islamic faith. I was nice to them, i always tried to make conversations, I would leave tips during my school lunch and what not. One day though I walk in wearing a cross necklace and shirt that quotes a phrase from the bible. when I went to purchase my lunch he would not take my money. I asked him why not, he replied because your are a jew. Boy did he get it from me. I swore him out telling him i was not and I was a methodist not a Jew, how absurd. He said that he would run over my arm if I ever came back to his shop, and i just lol'ed. I said to him its a fee country pal My grandfather fought for it and I wasn't going to allow some shop keeper to ruin that. half the town never goes back since that incident.
[/quote]

First thing were the banners in english or arabic?

Get the whole story from both sides not just israel, Much of Palestine is in ruin right now because of israeli attacks, but when israel attacks do you think Palestine is just going to let it go? No they're going to attack back. They are not lies, get the whole story before you call me a liar.

can you even read arabic? if not how do you know anything about the faith, translations of the quraan are constantly changed to make it look bad, get back to studying...

Sorry but if CNN is so perfect, why according to you are they saying that Pakistan is at war with Israel? Before listening to predominently Christian and Jewish run news corporations shed your coat of wool and learn to think for yourself, because sorry basically everything you just said is --------, I'm not even Islamic but at least I have the ability to see through propaganda and understand a situation myself.

Oh and understand the Israeli-Palestine conflict before saying that its only palestine doing the damage, for example did you know Israel used weapons containing mustard gas against Lebanon, which of course is an international war crime, all because two of their soldiers had been kidnapped. Yes that seems like a very rational response.

they were in English. I found them online from people who are Islamic translating the Quuran.

YOu should get some Facts and not Opinions before you call me a lair.



Who said I cant think for my self, I never knew there was so many assumptions in the debate thread.
I can to This is my Opinion on everything that this thread is about, not CNN's or anyone else's.

I never said Palestine is the only one attacking, I just simply stated that they are the ones attacking with out cause, and well obviously I'll add Kidnapping to the list. I do remember the whole mustard gas bomb, but shortly after they bombed right back. Sadly enough they tried to bomb a elementary school, But luckily no one was even injured. It seems reasonable to me because they are probably family men and wanted to see their soldiers out of there with their heads attached. Should I also mention they were Jewish?

Well done on not reading my post properly, +1 to you!

If you had read properly it's the fact that you stated that PAKISTAN attacked Israel, when if you were to look at a map, you would realise that Pakistan is no where near Israel, and also, wouldn't your lovely CNN be telling you that Pakistan is at war in Israel if it were happening?

How can you possibly believe that Palestine and Israel are at war without a cause? Do you know anything about the history of the middle east? The Palestinians had lived in modern day Israel (aka Palestine) for thousands of years, until the rise of Zionist Jews in the late 19th Century, early 20th century. After World War II, much to the disagreement of non-Zionist Jews, the country of Israel was founded in the region that the Torah claimed to be the land of the Jews given to them by God. This action resulted on millions of Palestinians being evicted from their homes having no where to live, now let me ask you this, if you were injustly evicted from your home would you be happy about it? Of course not. Now to cover the issue of Zionism and non-Zionist Jews, Zionist Jews believe that Israel is the land given to them by God and they have every right to live there, non-Zionist Jews believe that Israel WAS their land given by God, but the reason the Jews lost this land was because of the sinning of the Jews living there, thus it was taken from them.

So yes, there is a reason for the conflict in Palestine. Here is some facts for your misguided self:


119 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 982 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

1,053 Israelis and at least 4,789 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

6,845 Israelis and 32,569 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

Chart showing that the United States gives over 26 times more assistance to Israel than to Palestinian development organizations.

During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

Chart depicting the fact that the Palestinian unemployment is around 4 times the Israeli unemployment rate.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 9%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 40%.

Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

Now, do you finally understand? If not, I will happily come back with more lessons for you.

Thank You so much for providing that information, Henry


that just shows how blind you are, well, I never did call you a lair, You're making me look like a liar.

Here sir is what you have been so ignorant to:



Open your ----ing eyes...

To H3nr7y: I also mentioned Palestine, so thanks for reading my post -1 for you!
The whole Israeli-Palestine war started with the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers on the border.

To Sonic: How about you open you F-----G eyes! your the one being tricked with Propaganda. Did you ever think why Palestine has so many Civilian casualties?? I'll tell you why! Palestine soldiers and militia Use Kids as human shields, they attack Elementary schools because their cant fight like men! I have countless proof!


Palestine using children as Human shields :[

Palestine soldiers using school to launch mortar attacks.

This is how palestians use their children.



I want you guys to watch this video and realize what this war is all about. Watch it with an open mind and a non-biased opinion as I watched Sonics the same way.

The truth about the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

That last video is has many lies in it, You're the one who should not have a biased opinion. First off...

I have a deep knowledge of Islam, they never hated anyone, they are told they must live in peace with the people of the three books (Christians, Muslims, and of course Jews)

Palestine has always exist way before world war 2 read some history books please.

It says in world war 2 no country gave refuge to the jews, thats just made me laugh. America, Switzerland, AND Palestine offered refuge to the Jews, just read about it a while a go.

"Palestine does not exist, nor did it ever exist in the past. Palestinian people are a myth. "Palestine" is just a big lie by Islamists to try to win their global holy war - JIHAD - to take over the world."

WHAT!?!?

Thats just offending,
I am Muslim, I've read the Quraan and the story of Islam, Nothing in it says Muslims must take over the world. To be honest you're being taken over by propaganda, do you think some video made by an unknown guy on youtube is going to have all the truth? I should know what I'm talking about, I've read the Quraan, we are not this cult of evil minds hating other religions trying to take over the world, Why do you think the word Islam means Peace?

And come on, man, The guy looked like he was carrying the kid out of danger, oh what did you think? [sarcasm]"oh yeah I'm gonna drag this kid near my leg to protect my leg, cuz ill defo die if I get shot in the leg..good shield yeah"[saracasm]

and in the one where he "fires a mortar from the school" How do you know thats an actual school?

Plus if they DID use kids as human shields how would they protect against Israeli Missles, I think they are quite smart enough to know they wont.

I hate it when people stereotype Muslims saying they are all terrorists. The truth is Me, and the tons of other Muslims that I know are just like any normal person you'd meet.

haha if you say so, you are truly hopeless. Im not biased I watched your video and thats war, its happening in Iraq, Afghan, and Iran. Not just Lebanon or where ever.


So am I. It's the majority of the Islamic faith that shows hatred towards the Jews, and Majority is all it takes, sometimes less.


Ha have you even ever looked at a world map?? Theres is no so called country under the name of Palestine.



Well you would have to be close to these country's in order to get to them, the Majority of the jews at the time were located in central Europe. So it was nearly Impossible to Get to a safe location because their was a war going on out there, so you could not just travel through towns with out the Nazi's noticing you. Also Palestine could not have offered Shelter because it did not Exist. I suggest you watch a few movies and read a few books on the Holocaust it would do you good.

You are not keeping an open mind..So typical. Its saying that the "Actual" country itself never existed, so therefor there could never be a Palestinian.

So are your fellow Muslims. 'Nuff said.

IF you had a decent knowledge or even common sense you would realize that he was not carrying that kid out of danger. I mean look at the first kid..he was trying to go back but they forced him to keep moving. Then the second kid, if their was danger why was not everyone running away in the background instead of just looking at him and im sure if there was danger present the kid would not just sit in the middle of the road.
If you knew anything about the Rules of engagement you would know that if he was in presence of civilians that they are not allowed to fire. So he didn't have to hold the boy in front of his face. Just because you are in the military does not mean you are 100% pinpoint accurate with the gun, so if he opened fire on the running terrorist he would have a high probability of hitting the id or the other civilians in the distance.

How do I know that in your video that helicopter was not Palestinian?? Or that the people that got hit with shrapnel was not from a RPG or suicide bomber? Answer these and I will answer yours.

It was not a freaking bombing mission in case you did not notice. simple as that. They only use Human shields in ground-to-ground combat, not against plane missiles, any moron could figure that out.



I never said you were a terrorist, and stop making it about you and henry just because your Muslim thats going off-topic. This is about our opinions on Fitna. I could go on forever and every time I'll be right because it's the truth, deal with it, move on, thats life.

First of all learn how to spell you're, you dubmass




I have been studying the holocaust for about two months now, I've just finished reading a bio about a Holocaust survivor(Ellie Weisell), in the book "Night" They were given a chance to flee to Palestine. You should read it.



The majority shows that they hate Israeli soldiers, not plain old Jews



You know any kid would be afraid to move in a situation like this.



are you retarded? Why would a Palestinian Helicopter attack Palestine? Why would a suicide bomber detonate his bombs in the middle of his people and not his enemies?

Violation to human right by Israelis, Illegal search and seizure, Purposely Killing a Civilian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0...feature=related

what do you have to say to that?

Right again I will attempt to quench your incredibly deep form of ignorance. The Israel palestine conflict did NOT start because an Iraeli Soldier was kidnapped, that was the Israel Lebanon conflict last year, well done on showing your first sign of utter ineptness on this subject.

Secondly, Palestine DID exist, before ordering others to read up on their history etc, I suggest you personally go study a subject thoroughly before trying to debate it.

Thirdly, if you were to read the Qu'Ran properly, then you would understand that Muslim's are told to love ALL people of the book, aka, all the abrahamic religions aka JUDAISM, CHRISTIANITY & ISLAM. You cannot say this is not true, as if you had read the Qu'Ran this message is put across with utmost importance.

What were your videos of Israeli propaganda supposed to achieve, I can clearly see that the boy is being dragged away TOWARDS a crowd of other youths, not being used as a shield at all.

Your whole concept of this situation is wrong, you are refusing to open your eyes to see the whole picture, you feel that for whatever reason you don't have to take anybody elses rational and undeniably logical reasoning in, please go study some History on the conflict, learn to understand the Politics and for the love of God, learn to argue effectively. Yes that means without using severe amounts of Bias.

Now as clearly you didn't take the facts in last time, I will repost them for you, and respond properly as in all honesty, I am not trying to attack you or your belief's I am trying to inform you so that in the future you can think for yourself rather than being misguided by the media.



Now, I dont understand why you keep saying that I am Islamic and that is why I keep responding, I am actually an Existentualist and don't believe in any religions, thus if you were to read my posts they have absolutely no bias, and only informative text.

If your going to insult someone, please at least refrain from doing this. And honestly, a few typos here and there is normal. No need for completely meaningless tomfoolery.

The movie guys, the movie...
not a debate about religions

lol not really and believe me I've learned this history several times. say what you want to say - most probably i won't get to this topic again to read any replies anyways.

This might sound vulgar but... --------...

The 'Palestinians' did not exist until the 1920s when they proclaimed themselves to be the decedents of the 'Plishtim' tribe (which really have lived here around 3000 years ago). Thing is, there's no relation between them. the Palestinians are just outcasts of all the other Arab nations of the region (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq mostly).

And in fact, when the Jewish Zionist program came about we had no claim on the land we lived (on lands the Israeli Establishment Fund bought with money from Jewish supporters from all around the world) side by side with the local Arabs till 1936 when the Arabs started the Great Strike. It lasted for half a year, all the Arabs didn't work, Terrorism groups attacked Jewish settlements and created roadblocks in order to ambush Jews traveling from city to city.

After the end of the strike the British who had a mandate on Israel for 50 years since WW1 formed the Phil commission to find the reasons for the strike and violence. they ruled that the Arabs were anxious with the Jewish success with the new immigration boom and thus were threatened.
So the British created the new White book which restricted all Jewish Immigration from Europe (right when the Nazi party came to power) and suggested an exit strategy where 70% of the land will be in Arab possession, 20% in Jewish possession and 10% (including Jerusalem) will stay international. even though the area will make Israel exposed to attacks from the Galil heights and Shomron mountains (of Arab control), the Jewish settlers agreed to the suggestion. Surprisingly the Arab leadership didn't agree to it and thus the plan never came through.
then in 1947 the UN suggested that 50% of the land (still including the Galil and Shomron) will be made into an Arab country, 40% into a Jewish country and 10% (still Jerusalem) will be international. The Jews agreed once again and the Arabs disagreed.

Then the next year the Israeli State came to existence, and the 4 surrounding Arab nations attacked us in the independence war where we conquered the almost all the 50% that was given to the Arabs, and as the laws of war of the UN state, since we didn't initiate the war - any land we conquered was ours.

Basically, the Arabs (not Palestinians) who lived here were the ones who initiated the hostility, they were given a better suggestion from the start, they refused to take it and when the time came and war was declared - Israel won and conquered the Galil and parts of the Shomron (leaving half of Jerusalem still in Arab Control).

I can't be bothered getting into an argument with others about this, but what Fishermanim has just said is effectively what happened.

Sorry but if you had studied the subject in a non-biased way, then you would know as well as I do that Palestine was in fact a nation. Yes it was under the Ottoman Empire etc, but does that mean that India wasn't a nation when it was in the British Empire? No.

You can say that the arabs were scared of an Israelite boom, but yet again, we know that over two million Palestinians were unlawfully evicted - Source The UN Security Council. You say that Zionist Jews bought the land, that is correct, but because they bought the land from people that didn't actually own it, and just kicked the Palestinians out and destroyed, it effectively makes the whole transaction irrelevant as evicting was still an unexscusable action, which told the Palestinians that Zionist Jews were immoral bastards to be honest.

Now, the arabs are supposedly unreasonable for not wanting 50% of their country? I mean if I was offered 50% of MY country, because of some people living the fact that their Holy Book states that the land belongs to them, I would refuse and I would certainly be hostile. Stating that Arabs started fighting Israel as being irrational, is irrational itself as I am sure that every Jew in the world, was against Hitler when he started clearing Jews for Lebensraum (much before the Holocaust) so is it wrong for fellow Arabs to be angry that Jews were effectively doing the thing that they had been so against to the Arab people? I think not.

I dont know..you tell me they do it all the time all over the middle east.

to Henry: Its you who is biased, it is clearly showing now. You keep saying this and that about this subject, But whenever it goes Pro-Israeli you dog it. The truth is posted all over these 3 pages but you can not see it.
Thefor you are not keeping an open mind and bieng extremly biased. How many times must I say I did read this with No-Bias. Also Palestine is Not A country, There are No
Palestinians . IT is Not on any world map unless its made by these mythical people called Palestinians.
Secondly please Put in the link to where as you get your so called "Facts".

First I never said that, wtf are you getting at me from?

second, you are such a hypocrite, you say you don't like it when he "dogs" pro Israeli comments, so you should stop "dogging" pro Palestinian comments.

third:

War...I do think killing civilians purposely and constantly is a war crime, correct me if I'm wrong

Fourth, Spell check is your friend

First off you did say that. Check your prior post's. Secondly They are not committing a war crime. if anyone is it's these Arabs who Kill and be-head and bomb just because of a religion. It's called hate crime and attempted Genocide. This is Debate thread not Proper Grammar thread thank you. Also IF Allah is such a great god why does he let his people get killed off hopelessly. Also why do they think god is going to give you guys Virgins. God is not that kind of a person, that is committing adultery. The Islamic religion Contradicts its self so much.

Isreali War Crimes: There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes.

Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes.

19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission then: "Strongly condemns the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of force in violation of international humanitarian law by the Israeli occupying Power against innocent and unarmed Palestinian civilians...including many children, in the occupied territories, which constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity;..."
Source: http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis7.html

you try telling me that if 50% of ur land was lost to someone, you would welcome them with open arms... it wouldn't happen. Common Sense would tell u that... It's called self-defense.

God is not that kind of a person, that is committing adultery?! Do u even know the meaninig of God?

In what way does the Islamic religion contradict itself, may i ask? It would have helped if u mention it in ur post rather than just skimming over it...

Israel bombs the Arabs, Arabs strike back, how does that have anything to do with religion or genocide? And also when more Arabs are being killed by the Israelis who do you think is committing genocide?

I guess history is told by the victors, but as far as this basic history goes it's collinear to the British documentation.

As for the land transfers. Since the Ottoman rule in Israel there was the Tabo registry for land (it's still in use today, that very same system - fully documented more than 100 years back). The Israeli Establishment Fund bought the Tabo rights from the Local Arabs, completely legitimately. There are proven records those lands were theirs and were bought by the Jews legally.

Biased or non-biased, the Palestinians as they like to be called did not exist until the 1920s. They had no national aspirations as they considered themselves part of the neighborings nations. when they were denied back to their countries they became refugees and thought of a great way to express some kind of claim on this piece of land. they named themselves after a known tribe that had lived there thosands of years ago, but thy have no bloodline with them.

Since they had no more claim on the land or requests to form a nation there than the Jews, the British implemented a fair start for both sides but the Arabs were soon to be found aggressive by the British and thus terms in the end worsened with them. Israel proclaimed itself over land given to them by the legal owner of the land at that time (Brittan) and got permission by the UN less than a year before. The rest of the country is as legit as any land conquered at wartime.

Same with capitalization and proper punctuation.

You don't need witticisms to make your argument any stronger.

True, yet research has shown that it does make your e-penis much larger.

Um okay, no more flaming because of typos...

fisher I'm not sure what that is I don't want to know

If you guys don't stop flaming period, this topic is going to get closed. Stop calling each other idiots.