I don't really know what to think of this.

Some general background.

June 19th, 2008. Egypt helps to broker a deal between Israel and Hamas. Israel would stop blockading and shutting off the Gaza Strip. Hamas would stop launching rockets into Israel.

Between there, the cease-fire was breached several times, and Israel once again began blockading Gaza.

December 20th, 2008. Hamas publicly states it does not wish to continue the cease-fire, as they saw Israel's blockading of Gaza as a breach of the agreement (which it is.)

December 27th, 2008. Israel executes air strikes against Gaza.

January 3rd, 2008. Israel executes ground strikes against Gaza.


Anyway, anymore info, I suggest the news or wikipedia.

Debate, I guess.

Despite what I post after this. I believe Israel should not have gone into a ground war yet. From what the world is seeing some Palestinians peasants have moved into Gaza and are trying to go shopping while the Israelies are sending in ground troops, without public opinion on Israels side, they will have to concede to a treaty and it will start again.

On 19 June 2008, a six-month Egyptian-brokered cease-fire agreement went into effect between Hamas and Israel.[50] The first serious violation of the agreement occurred on 23 June 2008 when one mortar shell was fired from Gaza. The following day three Qassam rockets were fired into Sderot, Israel, causing two minor injuries. Islamic Jihad, an organisation independent of Hamas, claimed responsibility, stating it was in response to the killing of two Palestinians in an earlier Israeli raid in Nablus (West Bank).[51] Hamas subsequently pressured the group into abiding by the ceasefire.[52] On 26 June, rockets were fired by Fatah, a Hamas rival, elements of which sometimes collaborate with Israel.

Peace treaty broken 4 days into it. Not by Israel

Qassam rockets launched exceeded 1,000 by June 9, 2006. During the year 2006 alone, more than 1,000 rockets were launched. In 2008, 1750 rockets were launched

If anyone wants to, scroll down this list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocke..._Israel_in_2008

You cant ignore that many attacks. You have to do something

Israel's fault.

Love how the media toyed with the idea of blaming Hamas, though.

Even though I'll probably hate the page and a half that comes after this.
Why?

Benjy, just wondering where you got that graph from.

And Zhou, how is it Israel's fault? Hamas is just as responsible as Israel is. They did not hold up their end of the bargain, and it is not very fair that Gaza should get free trade and the choice to freely attack Israel.

It's difficult to know what's really going on in a situation where the only information you get is biased. Killing people is wrong. Killing innocent people is abhorrent, and to be avoided at all cost. Yet neither can one be a sitting duck, right, whilst enemies lob explosive devices into the laps of your sweet little nested ducklings? I think the problem is that everyone is operating under the belief that they have the right to do what they are doing.

To quote the first line from Sarah Vowell's newest book The Wordy Shipmates:
"The only thing more dangerous than an idea is a belief. I don't mean thought-provoking. I mean: might get people killed."

She goes on to describe John Cotton's 1630 farewell sermon to the Massachusetts Bay Colonists:
"He begins with one of the loveliest passages from the book of Second Samuel, an otherwise R-rated chronicle of King David's serial-killer years. Chapter 7, verse 10:
"I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them,
that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more."
Sounds so homey, like that column in the real estate section of the New York Times about how people found their apartments. Until I remember that talk like this is the match still lighting the fuses of a thousand car bombs."

This is what happens when two (or more) factions believe they have the God-given right to a piece of land.

I say they are all wrong.

Well both sides aren't exactly helping their cause, but Israel blew everything out of proportion, which p***ed me off. Israel killed more people in one airstrike than Hamas killed in over 4 years of attacks, now that shows whose just making a bad thing worse.

Killing the innocent will only make Israel unpopular amongst the Palestinians in Gaza as well as everyone else in the Middle East and beyond. Israel is rejecting calls for a ceasefire, which I think France has asked for.

But they are already unpopular. Like way unpopular. Always have been. They're surrounded by people who hate them and want to take their land! They're not out to win any popularity contests. But I truly believe they need to go about it without killing.

P.S. Terrorist groups are bad.

I'm sorry, blew it out of proportion?
One thousand two hundred and twelve rockets
One thousand two hundred and ninety shells.
87 major rocket attacks into one area within a year. This isn't counting the 'little' IED's and excluding areas around Gaza.



Oh, Hezbollah! As in the terrorist group Hezbollah? Hilarious. Right along with Hamas, who just a few years ago were on the news as a terrorist group, now apparently a governmental terrorist group!

Israel is on a direct border with Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. All who have at some stage promised to push the State of Israel into the sea. All who have at one point launched full scale wars against Israel and all who have at one point hosted a terrorist group just from their country.

You can debate whether it was right for Israel to send in ground troops or not.
But they did not blow anything out of proportion, they had the right to break the cease fire 4 days after it was made because a terrorist group decided to laugh at the agreement and start launching rockets.

Since 1998 there have been 14 Israelis killed by Hamas Rockets. Whilst that's still an inexcusable offence, that's statistically less than have been killed by vending machines falling on them in the same period (2.18 per annum in theory).

In the lastest statistics I have by the Palestinian Human Rights Organisation within the Gaza Strip: .

Now, shall we compare 14 deaths to the action taken by Israel over the past decade which, amongst others has included such atrocities as:

• Illegal Occupation of Palestinian and Lebanese Territories
  Source - UN condemnation of Israeli Occupation or The relating UN Resolution calling for complete withdrawal of occupying forces within Lebanon.
• Annexing of Occupied Territories
  Source - Well, pretty much anything involving the West Bank Wall, but for the Internation Court's Condemnation, that'd be a good source.
• Governmental Racial Discrimination
  Source - Maltreatment of marriages between Israelis and Palestinians, Denial of Residency Rights to Palestinians, Discrimination against Palestinian Children in Israeli Schools
• Torture of Palestinian Citizens
  Source - One of the more recent articles - Israel admitted to using torture in 2002 but claimed to have subsequently stopped.
• Use of Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields
  Source - Again, one of many articles but this is a Human Rights Infraction now banned by the Israeli High Court.
• Restriction of Fuel and Power to the Occupied West Bank
  Source - A far more serious problem than it sounds.
• Delaying of Medical Evacuations
  Source - Delays and denials cause at least 3 deaths

Now, some of these seem less serious than others - such as the restriction of power and oil or discrimination against inter-racial couples - yet they are infact some of the most serious problems. The restriction of power has meant that base infrastructure such as hospitals and schools in the West Bank have struggled to stay in operation for the last year since the restrictions have been put in place. This is the reason Hamas refused to renew the Ceasefire agreement. It's all very well Israel saying they'll leave Palestine alone if they then restrict the ability of Palestine to govern itself. For the past year, Israel has also denied all but the very basic humanitarian aid sent to Palestine. Since 50% of Palestinians rely on Humanitarian aid to survive, this is Israel effectively denying 50% of the West Bank any quality of life. Moreover there's a sizeable percentage of Palestinians who only get clean, running water once a week.

As for the discrimination against Inter-racial marriage, this is removing the right to choice that all people are inherently entitled to. The Israeli government is banning it's citizens from marrying who they choose - one such couple for instance have their marriage listed as "Under Investigation" by the Israeli Government.

These are basic Human Rights Issues which Israel seems to feel don't apply to Palestinian Citizens. It's almost Ironic how Jewish people were denied the same Human Rights during the Holocaust and then allow their government to turn around and subject another race to the same stigma of inferior and sub-human.

Please don't mistake that I'm attempting to legitimise anything the Hamas have done - they truly are doing as much as they can to get innocent Palestinians killed - but Israel is doing nothing but creating terrorists.

Instead of trying to follow the Old Testament and take an eye for an eye, how about they actually get around a negotiating table and offer to stop the blockades in return for a ceasefire? Like it or not, Hamas are an elected government. The Palestinian people are no doubt less than thrilled by having their homes invaded by Israeli soldiers. Therefore, either Hamas accepts the ceasefire if their terms are met and the Palestinians continue to vote for them, or they don't and a more pro-ceasefire government is elected and Hamas goes back to just being another terrorist organisation whom the Palestinian government can - and hopefully will - deal with.

Related articles:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...ans-middle-east - Possibly the best comment I've read so far - definitely worth a read.
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/ar...on?id=161419993

christ sake rob

at least leave some chance of debate

i mean dont go and unquestionably win the arguement like that

Oshi-, Rob is here. Debate over.

As long as the Palestinian people are willing to support a terrorist based government, I don't see why it is unreasonable for Israel to take it upon themselves to stop the terrorist activities, preemptively even.

You said it yourself, Hamas is a terrorist organization, and an elected government.

The US and UK doesn't deal with terrorists (kind of.) Why should Israel have to anymore?

The reason that Israel created the blockade was listed under the general 'security reasons'.
Everyone should know it's because they knew one terrorist group or another would get their hands on some deadly weapons, and now, because of these new rockets and new locations, they can start attacking Israel deeper then they've ever gotten.

The rockets started. The blockade started.
I'm not saying its right, the restrictions imposed allowed only 9 basic humanitarian aids. What I say is I understand why they did it.

Rob, if you want to turn this into a debate for how Israel treats the Palestinians wrong, I don't think anyone can side against you, its wrong.
A couple of those sources really don't have much to do with the debate at hand.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Israel had cause. You can't make it seem like Israel broke the treaty on a whim, preemptively.
These were terrorists, like Silver said, they didn't have to make any agreement, but yes, they negotiated with terrorists, and now they have a huge problem thats firing missiles right into their homes.

The blockade was harsh. It was either stop the weapons or destroy the weapons. They couldn't stop the weapons, now they destroy them.

PS: For anyone wondering (like I did) about how they still manage to get the rockets in

Edit: Youtube bbcode not working, so www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u8RJ9YgRoM

Movie isn't working (Might be my browser though)

Israel claims that they are targeting Hamas and Hamas only, but why then, is there a 600 and rising death toll in Gaza, and also, why are places such as a United Nation school targeted in mortar attacks?

By supporting Israel as strongly as they do, the US are supporting and dealing with a terrorist based government. Israel is carrying out acts of terror on the Palestinian people of Gaza.

UN definition of Terrorism;


"Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them."

How can you tell me attacking places like UN-run schools and areas of asylum does not come under that?

I'm not really following this but I would guess it could be that they want their land back, and the rockets seemed like a nice cover-up, like the "war on terror" when all we really want is their oil. Possibly they could really be PO'ed about those rockets, but would that cause them to launch a full scale invasion?

They say that Israeli soldiers are targeting everyone because Hamas are hiding in the community living in private homes.

I also heard something that when the invasion commenced Hamas leaders said that they will turn Gaza into a graveyard of Israeli soldiers, and a few days ago I heard that Hamas leaders are prepared to participate in peace-talks

"Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them."

Israel's military said its shelling — the deadliest single episode since Israeli ground forces invaded Gaza Saturday — was a response to mortar fire from within the school and said Hamas militants were using civilians as cover.

Source

It was war. Not terrorism.
And they shelled around the school not the actual school

"Possibly they could really be PO'ed about those rockets"
This isnt a couple rockets.
These are THOUSANDS of them. Almost every single day into one area. Daily attack by mortar and rockets.
Who the hell would put up with that.
If every other day a carbomb went off in New York do you think America would do Sage all?

Now I am not prepared to participate in a prolonged argument, but I will say this.

If I were to punch you in the head for no reason, you would punch me back, no? If I punched you in the head on a regular basis for six years, you would put a stop to it! For at least the past six years, Hamas have been firing rockets into Israel, causing all sorts of damage, and now Israel has decided it is time to put a stop to it, and so they have invaded Gaza. The world is calling for a ceasefire, but if Israel were to stop their invasion, Hamas would just keep lobbbing missiles over and the invasion wouldn't have accomplished anything. The Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has therefore declared that no ceasefire will be met until the Hamas rockets fired into Israel are stopped. This does not just include destroying their weapons, but also finding and destroying the secret tunnels etc, that Hamas use to smuggle troops and arms in.

Now Spire, and probably more of you are asking this same question: "Why is Israel killing civilians?" And I answer: Israel are not aiming to kill civilians. Hamas are cunning cowards in the fact that they hide their weapons, their troops and themselves behind or under civilains, including their own hospitals, schools, houses, etc. Therefore Israel cannot attack it without injuring civilians, and when Israel hurt civlians, Hamas will announce it to the world so that they can all hate Israel for it. Israel are avoiding civilian casualties - for lack of a better phrase - a lot. In fact, Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. As in, but not really in this fashion I believe, ringing up the entire city's civilians on the phone and exclaiming "We are about to attack your city. This is your chance to escape."

For a much better article, please read what is concealed in this spoiler:

If you were to invade a part of my house and attack another part of it, I wouldn't punch you?

Meh, I didn't bother reading the spoiler though.

The BBC

"The UN has said it is suspending aid operations in Gaza because its staff have been hit by Israeli attacks.

The suspension would continue "until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security", the UN said. "

"The UN's relief agency Unwra said it was "with great regret" that it had been forced to make a difficult decision."

"We have suspended our operations in Gaza until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security," said Unwra spokesman Chris Gunness."

"Our installations have been hit, our workers have been killed in spite of the fact that the Israeli authorities have the co-ordinates of our facilities and that all our movements are co-ordinated with the Israeli army." Yes. This means the school, which the UN have stated did NOT have any rockets being fired from it.

"Israeli troops had forced Palestinian civilians to stay in their homes after taking them over as sniper positions or bases, it said quoting sources in Gaza. This increases risk to families and means they are effectively being used as human shields," the group said."

"In several well-documented cases in the past, Israeli troops have forced Palestinian civilians, at gunpoint, to go before them into buildings from which they feared attack.

Israeli judges banned the practice in 2005, but Amnesty says troops "frequently" imprison Palestinian families in homes used as military observation and firing positions. "

The UN

"UNESCO Director-General Koïchiro Matsuura and the Secretary-General’s Special Representative for Children and Armed Conflict, Radhika Coomaraswamy also expressed grave concern over the attacks against UNRWA schools and associated facilities set up by the UN as places of refuge for civilians fleeing the fighting in Gaza. "

"The attacks on UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) schools yesterday underscore the dangers inherent in the continuation and escalation of this conflict, and the Secretary-General called once again for an immediate ceasefire."

" The Human Rights Council in Geneva has announced that it will hold a special session this Friday, to address “the grave violations of human rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including the recent aggression in the occupied Gaza Strip”."

Ma'an News Agency

"Gaza – Ma’an – Israeli warplanes killed three Palestinian civilians on Wednesday afternoon during what Israel had earlier declared to be a unilateral three hour halt in its attacks on Gaza.

Israel had announced that it would halt attacks between 1:00pm and 4:00pm on Wednesday afternoon to allow the delivery of humanitarian aid."

The Guardian


Red Cross criticises Israel for blocking access to Gaza injured
• Israeli officials in Egypt for talks as Gaza death toll tops 700
• UN suspends aid shipments after truck driver is killed


Israel today came under fierce criticism from humanitarian groups for delaying access to the injured during its offensive in Gaza as fresh fighting killed at least 11 people, taking the death toll over 700.

The unusually strong condemnation coincided with a UN announcement that it was suspending its operations in the territory in response to what it said were Israeli attacks.

The International Committee of the Red Cross accused Israel of "unacceptable" delays in letting rescue workers reach three homes in Gaza City that had been hit by shelling.

The group said the Israeli army refused rescuers permission to reach the site in the Zaytun neighbourhood for four days. Once Red Cross teams reached the area yesterday, they found four small children next to their dead mothers at one home. They were too weak to stand up on their own. One man was also found alive, too weak to stand up. In all, there were at least 12 corpses lying on mattresses.

In another house, a rescue team found 15 survivors, including several wounded. In yet another home, rescuers found three bodies. Israeli soldiers posted at a military position nearby ordered the rescue team to leave the area, which it refused to do.

"This is a shocking incident," said Pierre Wettach, the Red Cross's head for the region. "The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestine Red Crescent to assist the wounded."

"NEARLY everything you’ve been led to believe about Gaza is wrong. Below are a few essential points that seem to be missing from the conversation, much of which has taken place in the press, about Israel’s attack on the Gaza Strip.


NY Times


Ronald J. Cala II
Related
Times Topics: Israel | Palestinians | Hamas

THE GAZANS Most of the people living in Gaza are not there by choice. The majority of the 1.5 million people crammed into the roughly 140 square miles of the Gaza Strip belong to families that came from towns and villages outside Gaza like Ashkelon and Beersheba. They were driven to Gaza by the Israeli Army in 1948.

THE OCCUPATION The Gazans have lived under Israeli occupation since the Six-Day War in 1967. Israel is still widely considered to be an occupying power, even though it removed its troops and settlers from the strip in 2005. Israel still controls access to the area, imports and exports, and the movement of people in and out. Israel has control over Gaza’s air space and sea coast, and its forces enter the area at will. As the occupying power, Israel has the responsibility under the Fourth Geneva Convention to see to the welfare of the civilian population of the Gaza Strip.

THE BLOCKADE Israel’s blockade of the strip, with the support of the United States and the European Union, has grown increasingly stringent since Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in January 2006. Fuel, electricity, imports, exports and the movement of people in and out of the Strip have been slowly choked off, leading to life-threatening problems of sanitation, health, water supply and transportation.

The blockade has subjected many to unemployment, penury and malnutrition. This amounts to the collective punishment — with the tacit support of the United States — of a civilian population for exercising its democratic rights.

THE CEASE-FIRE Lifting the blockade, along with a cessation of rocket fire, was one of the key terms of the June cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. This accord led to a reduction in rockets fired from Gaza from hundreds in May and June to a total of less than 20 in the subsequent four months (according to Israeli government figures). The cease-fire broke down when Israeli forces launched major air and ground attacks in early November; six Hamas operatives were reported killed.

WAR CRIMES The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is potentially a war crime. Every human life is precious. But the numbers speak for themselves: Nearly 700 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed since the conflict broke out at the end of last year. In contrast, there have been around a dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers. Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its blockade of the Gaza Strip.

This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So please, before you blurt out biased Sage like that, at least know enough about the situation to do it subtley rather than ending up looking rather ignorant.

Can somebody please explain why my quotes aren't working?

[quote]
It was war. Not terrorism.
And they shelled around the school not the actual school[/quote]

Exactly - Israel DO NOT - repeat, DO NOT - specifically target innocent civilians, which is why they did not attack the school. They bombed around it. But the Hamas people hiding inside the building had set booby-traps and explosives to stop the Israeli army getting in, which exploded as a result of the outside bombings. IE Israel did not attack the school, it was Hamas's fault.

[quote]
The BBC

"The UN has said it is suspending aid operations in Gaza because its staff have been hit by Israeli attacks.
[/quote]

Obviously not on purpose. Israel would not specifically attack the UN agents. It was obviously an accident of sorts. The Israeli army has killed a few of themselves by friendly fire by mistake, so the same probably happened to the UN people.

[quote]
Yes. This means the school, which the UN have stated did NOT have any rockets being fired from it.[/quote]

Yet it had arms and Hamas men inside it, hiding.

[quote]
but Amnesty says troops "frequently" imprison Palestinian families in homes used as military observation and firing positions. "[/quote]

There is no proof to that! The media aren't allowed into the area.

[quote]
The UN

"UNESCO Director-General Koïchiro Matsuura and the Secretary-General’s Special Representative for Children and Armed Conflict, Radhika Coomaraswamy also expressed grave concern over the attacks against UNRWA schools and associated facilities set up by the UN as places of refuge for civilians fleeing the fighting in Gaza. "
[/quote]

As previously mentioned, they DID NOT ATTACK THE SCHOOL.

[quote]
coincided with a UN announcement that it was suspending its operations in the territory in response to what it said were Israeli attacks./quote]

As previously mentioned, not on purpose.

[quote]
The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded.[/quote]

Yes they did, they have let truckloads of aid in.

[quote]
THE GAZANS Most of the people living in Gaza are not there by choice.[/quote]

Why didn't they leave previously if they hated it there? Obviously, those there were happy living there.

[quote]
Israel has the responsibility under the Fourth Geneva Convention to see to the welfare of the civilian population of the Gaza Strip./quote

And therefore the Hamas Governemnt does not need to care about their own people and can spend all their money on arms? I think not.

[quote]
The cease-fire broke down when Israeli forces launched major air and ground attacks in early November; six Hamas operatives were reported killed.[/quote]

Wrong. The cease-fire was in place, yet Hamas didn't care about it and fired rockets in on a regular basis anyway. Then they publicly announced that they were scrapping the ceasfire and sent a bombardment of an assortment of mortars and rockets and shells in, so Israel retaliated.

[quote]
Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and other forms of violence. [/quote]

Negotiation has been tried! And it never, ever worked for more than a few months! Hamas chucked away their ceasefire and attacked. Negotiation will not work.

[quote]
This might have been able to happen had Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its blockade of the Gaza Strip.[/quote]

Israel did lift its blockade, however Hamas did not uphold their ceasefire and therefore it was broken anyway. You cannot blame Israel for breaking the ceasefire when it was Hamas.

[quote]
“The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”"[/quote]

I do not know who that person is or why he chose to say that, but I can assure you that practically nobody in the world believes they are a defeated people. How can they, if the war is still going on?


[quote]So please, before you blurt out biased Sage like that, at least know enough about the situation to do it subtley rather than ending up looking rather ignorant.
[/quote]

I do - please read my spoiler. That was the original post before it became too long. You people hear one side of the story and swear at Israel, yet do not read any part of the other half - part of which is concealed in my spoiler. So please read it. I'm sure you all are aware of Media Bias against Israel!

A better example would be.

If I were a landlord, and I gave you an apartment, and you were dealing drugs and being pissy and throwing baseballs into my windows and occasionally hitting my renters, and I got fed up, so I block your house. You can't get your groceries and what not. Then we agree you stop throwing baseballs at my renters, and I'll let you pass. You keep throwing the baseballs, so I block your door again. Then you say I am wrong. So I go into your house with a baseball that, mind you, an apartment that I gave to you, and start breaking your things looking for your baseballs.

Does that make better sense?

Who's You? Israel? If so, yes.

As for Bling Masta, you must be equal and hear both sides of the argument, so please read the spoiler.

And why arent my quotes working?

Where'd the "Landlord" get the land from?

Are you Foxgloveing kidding me? Jewish sympathisers of Israel run nearly ALL the media...


I'm quoting the UN..In what way are they biased against Israel?



Ok now you are just making me laugh, all the world has ever heard for the last couple of decades is how great Israel is and how villainous Palestine is, so I've hardly heard one side of the story.

--------------More Anti-Humanitarian moves by Israel-----------


Israeli forces shelled a house in the Gaza Strip which they had moved around 110 Palestinians into 24 hours earlier, the UN quotes witnesses as saying.

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) called it "one of the gravest incidents" since the beginning of the offensive.

The shelling at Zeitoun, a south-east suburb of Gaza City, on 5 January killed some 30 people, the report said.

Israel says it has looked into the allegations and they are unfounded.

Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said no Israeli soldiers had been in the area on the day the incident was supposed to have happened.

The OCHA report said: "According to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitoun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors.

"Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."

The UN said those who survived and were able walked 2km to the main north-south road to be transported to hospital in civilian vehicles.

"Three children, the youngest of whom was five months old, died upon arrival at the hospital," the report said.

'No safe haven'

Allegra Pacheco, of OCHA in Jerusalem, said they were not accusing the Israelis of a deliberate act, but said the incident needed to be investigated.

She also said they were concerned at claims by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) that ambulances were only allowed access to the neighbourhood on Thursday - four days after the alleged incident.

The ICRC on Thursday accused Israel of failing to fulfil its duty to help wounded civilians in Gaza.

"In Gaza, there is a severe protection of civilians crisis. There is no safe haven, no safe space, for all the civilians, particularly children," Ms Pacheco told the BBC.

"Since the ground operation, the number of children killed has risen by 250%."

An estimated 770 Palestinians and 14 Israelis have died in nearly two weeks of Israel's air and ground offensive against the Palestinian militant group Hamas.

The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza.

In supporting that you sicken me deeply.

Do you want the easy version or the hard version?
The easy version is England (via not extending Palestine Mandate, and inaction/useless action by the great council we call the UN)
The hard version is to say the world. Throughout history, as I am aware you know, Jews have been kicked out of countries. By the mid 19th century, many were flocking to Israel and buying lands from Arabs (mostly the useless desert or swamp lands). Jews steadily began gaining people, and following World War II, and increasing number of Jews went to Israel. There became conflict with the Arabs of then Palestine, and of course the Arabs surrounding Palestine. England could not do anything to appease both parties, so it just left. The UN then decided that Palestine would now be a Jewish state. This angered the Arabs. Jews were happy. Kind of.

In short, the landlord got the land through purchases, immigration (legal and illegal), and political grants from the UN.

and h3n7y, are we talking about the same UNSC that sent next to no help to Rwanda, despite having previous knowledge of a possible genocide occurring? The same UNSC that reduced the Rwandan aid despite making no progress towards stopping the genocide? The same UNSC that had a member of its own council reportedly aid the Hutu in their genocide? The same UNSC that has does nothing to bring down the Arab Janjaweed armies that are massacring in Sudan? The same UNSC that did nothing to protect the Bosnians from the genocidal Serbians? The same UNSC that makes the US, UK, Russia, China, and France announce their nuclear arms, yet has no proliferation on India, Pakistan, and other nations?
I'm sorry, but the UNSC holds about as much credibility as my ass.

(Funny I mentioned India and Pakistan. Another great example of the UN being useless. Their solution to the Kashmir conflict? Resolution 1172. What does Resolution 1172 state? Stop testing nuclear arms, and talk things out. On your own. Without our intervention or help.)

America made us do it in 1952 Aaron.

Anyway, as for the points about Hamas being a terrorist organisation - this is actually only the militant arm of the group. Much like in Northern Ireland, the IRA has apparently previously had links to Sinn Fein, you couldn't really call Sinn Fein a terrorist organisation - it's a political party. Unfortunately there's the same problems with division within Hamas as there is within any political party in that whilst all members may have similar ideals, they will vary immensely in their specific ideation.

Furthermore, during the 1970's, Yasser Arafat was one of the most prolific terrorists in Palestine. The same Yasser Arafat who was later heralded as the means of achieving lasting peace in the Middle East. International Policy between Palestine and the rest of the world (Read USA) has basically consisted of accusing on political group of being terrorists and negotiating with the other, then when it all mucks up swap over and denounce another group as terrorists and negotiate with your previous terrorists. A prime example of this would be the US backed Fatah - Arafat's party which still holds ties to militant groups, yet since they're in opposition the US is perfectly happy to refuse talks with Palestine unless they do so with Fatah officials.

As for the "Israel had cause" it was infact Israel who broke the ceasefire in November, which I sourced in one of those articles previously [Or perhaps didn't source and will put up if not later].

And since I've also not got time to watch the movie, I'm going to assume it says rockets are smuggled in via tunnels. Which rather than Israel actually bothering to police themselves, they've now asked for UN deployment of troops on the Palestinian/Egyptian border in order to stop the transportation of weapons into Palestine. They couldn't possibly have done that beforehand could they? I mean, it's not like they knew about them and just let it happen for some kind of a reason to invade or anything.

What I believe in a nut-shell:
Palestine: No weapons. Israel tanks comes in on the road and they have no choice but to throw pebbles and stones.
Israel: Comes to Gaza and states that schools are a headquarters for the Hamas, so they come in and shoot the kids.
Palestine: Loses their homes due to rocket's and motars.
Israel: Continues their attack on Gaza.
UN: Behind the desk smoking a pipe.
America: Says that they have a right to defend or take what is theirs (or something like that), most probably because in the past, Israel helped America to build up on its economy or whatsoever.
Israel: Delays the Red Cross etc; from entering Gaza to help the injured and hungry.
Now: Israeli tanks still coming into Gaza.

Obviously I am taking side on the Palestine people, most probably because I'm a muslim. I know that muslims in most countries walk on the main road carrying banners and protests or whatsoever, but I guess this people are just trying to get the attention of the media, but sadly I dont think it will help in any way.

Israel+America = Unbeatable, but who knows: Only time could tell

ffs i made a 2.3k word post the other day and now its gone..

How is Gaza getting missles?

If it's from other countries, there should be an embargo placed on Gaza just to stop this.

If they make it, well I don't know, sorry.

I Love you

Ok, so before I say anything else I'll say I'm a Huge pro-Palestinian

-Hamas kills 13 Israelis, 10 soldiers, 3 civilians in the cross fire
-Israel kills 917 Palestinians, hardly any of them are Hamas , half of them women and children, they use white phosphorus in a highly populated area which is just one of their WAR CRIMES.

They say they are attacking Hamas... eh?
They drop bombs on schools and hospitals and residential areas, and Hamas is hiding in Underground tunnels, Hard to believe what the Israelis say is true.

The Palestinians are fighting for the land that was rightfully theirs in the first place.
During the 1700-1900's The were mass Occupations of Arab countries by European countries, so the Arabs made a deal with the British, Help the British Occupy the Osman Nation and they will grant them freedom.

The British didn't keep their end of the deal, after WWI The British and the French made a secret deal called Sikes Peco, which included countries like Syria to be under the Occupation of the French, others under the occupation of British.

The Arabs didn't agree with it, since it was obviously unfair, Then came Arthur James Belfore and made the deal that Palestine would be given to the Jews that were getting kicked out of Germany. And that's how the conflict began.

Since it has began the numbers of Palestinian and Israeli Deaths have been distorted and misread to the Public, for example as in 2001

here are charts of Israeli and Palestinian deaths:


and now number of deaths reported


in 2001...



Now the truth has finally come out in the Israel-Gaza Conflict.
Israel has been committing acts of terrorism and war crimes since the conflict began, and America has been covering all of that up.

btw, Hi Henry good to see you're still supporting Palestine.
http://commet213.deviantart.com/art/Free-Palestine-109033370 <-----click

To Kevin, they are making the Qassam's out of everyday materials (for bomb making), and the heavier stuff is being smuggled in underground. Whether or not some people believe that is up to debate.

The land is rightfully nobodies. In technicality, the land belongs to the Israelis, as that is what the Palestinian praised (you know what I mean) UN says.

A muslim saying the land is his is just as wrong as a jew, or a christian, or anybody else saying the land is theirs.

Omg, wth? About half a page of posts just after henry complaining his long one went missing (which it did) are deleted!

Are you trying to recite the news story from memory or something? Israel didn't come in and directly shoot kids. Mortar attacks hit the school. I don't see when they ever said that "Hamas is in schools, so we'll kill kids"

Do you read news at all? If they didn't care, they wouldn't have been sending humanitarian aid.
After attacks on their convoys by Israelis, they had no choice but to stop aid.

How about the Israelis in Ashkelon and other areas in southern Israel getting hit by rockets? It goes both ways.

You're making them look ultimately defenceless, although for alot of civilians that might be the case.

@^

1st point you made:
Yeah....
they say the school is where hamas launched their rockets, so the drop a bomb and blow up all the kids, doesn't really differ from shooting them.

2nd point is true

3rd
compare how many Palestinians lost their homes to Israelis, the Palestinians practically lost their whole country.

4th
true

Omg, let me get this straight:

Israel did not bomb the school! The bombed around it, but Hamas had set up explosives and booby traps in the school to protect themselves that detonated as a result of the outside bombings, and I bet you Israel did not intend the entire school to blow up, they would've taken many measures to avoid that.

EDIT (Next day after previous):

Hamas agrees to Gaza truce, Israel reply awaited: official

EDIT (Next day after first edit):

Air strike kills senior Hamas leader
"An Israeli air strike killed senior Hamas leader Said Siam in Gaza City on Thursday, flattening the building where he was staying."
"A Hamas leader in Damascus, Mohammed Nazzal, confirmed that Siam was killed."
"Hamas television said Siam's son, brother and his brother's family were also killed."
"An Israeli army statement said the house where Siam was staying was hit in an air strike."
"Siam was considered close to Iranian officials, and established Hamas' police force in Gaza. He was charismatic and known for using crude, colourful slang to describe his rivals."
"The death of the senior Hamas leader is not likely to affect the militant group's ability to attack Israel, but may shake its ability to control security within Gaza."

I really dont know but I don't think any country has the right to stop or get in the way of these people, either way its their war which we should have no say in, besides we already have our own problems such as a future president named Hussein obama (noting 2 terrorists in the past 10 years)

I'm surprised you left this point out: Does this mean its true? Of course it is.

Where the hell did it go?

I left that out because I don't know enough on the subject to make a reasonable arguement.

Ceasefire in place, three rockets fired into Israel because the Palestinians want the army out of their territory (no harm in that), and Israel responds by killing yet another civilian.

Yes, the ceasefire is in place, however I can't find the exact link now but the news said around 20 rockets were fired into Israel just after the ceasefire was in place. I can't see anything about another civilian dying though, however the unilateral ceasefire is fragile as Hamas are still firing.

They took away the country and now the religion?

Hamas agreed to stop firing rockets when the Israeli military leaves Gaza and allows full crossing.

they haven't done either of that, so why should Hamas stop firing rockets?
and there's also the matter of Hamas wanting to avenge the 1275 people who died. Hardly any of them were Hamas, at least Hamas has a higher percentage of Military kills than civilian.

uh no. Roughly half of the deaths were Hamas.
Also, even if Hamas stop firing rockets, that doesn't mean they aren't going to keep smuggling them in, and as Hamas has proved on the last ceasefire, we cannot take their word for anything. And being sneaky like that, they may stop firing rockets but harrass Israel in other ways.

secondly:



Can you give me the link for that? Thats not right if its true, however your quote seems to say its to minimise the people going in or something so that theres less of a threat :S.

They cant stop a muslim from going for friday prayers. Even though they are trying to control amount of people going to the mosque, they still shouldn't stop them from going. And Israeli Passes? What's up with that? Jew's dont go to mosques to pray, so why do they even bother taking control of the Al-Aqsa mosque?

Which mosque is the Al-Aqsa mosque? Its not the Dome of the Rock, is it?

On another note:

Israel accused of using farmers as Human Shields
"Samir Abu Dayer, 59, a farmer, said soldiers occupied several hectares of farmland behind his house."
"They entered my house with a tank," Mr Dayer said. "I was told to come outside with my family."
"Told to strip to his underwear, Mr Dayer said his hands were tied behind his back with white plastic cables, then he was moved into the sandpit area."
"They said the Israeli troops then took position around perimeter of the sandpit area and began to engage with Palestinian resistance fighters. "We kept our heads down, we didn't move for two days," Mr Madhoun said. "There was lots of shooting over our heads but I don't know where it was coming from. We were given blankets and food."
"An Israeli spokesman told Herald it did not comment on operational matters. But he stressed the Israeli military does not use anyone as "human shields"."
"The deputy director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, Jaber Jishah, said it appeared a textbook example of human shields.
"We are investigating this very thoroughly," he said."

-my opinion - if this is true, Israel probably thought "stuff it, they do and aren't convicted, why not give them a taste of their own medicine?"

Hamas tried to hijack ambulances during Gaza war
"Mr Shriteh said the more immediate threat was from Hamas, who would lure the ambulances into the heart of a battle to transport fighters to safety."
""They were very scared, and very nervous … They dropped their weapons and ordered me to get them out, to put them in the ambulance and take them away. I refused, because if the IDF sees me doing this I am finished, I cannot pick up any more wounded people."
""And then one of the fighters picked up a gun and held it to my head, to force me. I still refused, and then they allowed me to leave.""
"Mr Shriteh says Hamas made several attempts to hijack the al-Quds Hospital's fleet of ambulances during the war.
"You hear when they are coming. People ring to tell you. So we had to get in all the ambulances and make the illusion of an emergency and only come back when they had gone.""
"Israel makes no secret of the fact that it has a network of informants inside Gaza"
"According to rumour, a number of alleged collaborators have already been executed. Taher al-Nono, the Hamas government's spokesman in Gaza, told the Herald that 175 people had been arrested so far on suspicion of collaborating. "They will be dealt with by the court and the judge and we will respect the judge's decision," Mr Nono said. And if the sentence is death? "We will respect the decision."" -Even though they may be innocent...
"With Hamas's popularity apparently plummeting in as a result of the war, the movement's leadership is using financial handouts to boost morale."-desperate

-If they REALLY care for their people, why stop the aid going to them??"

----------------------------
I have not yet found a source, but I heard that the Black Plague or something very similar is sweeping through the arabs - which is curable with modern medicine. The Arabs, however, more resources on arms then on health and many of them are leaving their bands to seek help with western medicine rather than die in their group.

Lul. The bubonic Plague. I'd stick to fact rather than hearsay as a general rule. There'll undoubtedly be a lot of disease spreading, but most of it will be things such as cholera and dysentery which will be resulting from the fact that people don't have access to clean water. And yes, the Al Aqsa mosque is the Dome of Rock.

And yes, there are still rockets being fired into Israel by Hamas. Hamas agree a ceasefire then go and break it as soon as it's signed. And as usual, it'll be the Palestinian people who suffer for it.

I do like the Israeli passes though. Honestly, the parallels you can draw between how the Jews were treated by the Nazis and how they're now treating Palestinian civilians are laughably numerous. I'm just waiting until they say that all muslims have to wear the Crescent Moon visibly at all times.

1) If Hamas used their resources to help and build up Gaza to a great economic and city with a nice life, then there would be fresh water, anyway. It is because they spend all or most of their resources on arms, etc, that they dont have such a great economic city. To add to that, when Israel left Gaza to the Palestinians, they left a nice city. With greenhouses. In the desert. Greenhouses in the desert - but did they use them? Did Hamas ensure the goodness of their peoples lives? No, they just break the ceasefires or don't listen to them anyway and strike Israel, then wonder why Israel are retliating! And it took Israel what? 6 years to retaliate? Lets put this in gamers speak in a different scenario. Say Hams bombed USA.

And remember, Israel was fighting this war about Gaza, rockets, etc. Hamas was fighting to destroy Israel.

<rocket lands>
US: Hey, WTH? man?
<second rocket lands>
US: No seriously, WTF?
<more rockets land>
US: That does it, you!!
<US strikes back.>
Hamas: World! Help us! US attacked us! The honourable US! Waaaa! Our people are dying ..even though thats because I shoved them on top of my rocket launchers..
World: WTH America?

Just replace US with Israel, and remember that it took Israel a good number of years to retaliate, and America would take a week or so.



I think they would only do that if they knew they were in danger of an immitant full-scale war...etc